Pronunciation of “often” - Pain in the English

According to Wikipedia ' the pronunciation without /t/ is still preferred by 73% of British speakers and 78% of American speakers'. It is certainly thought that ... YourPainIsOurPleasure 24-HourProofreadingService—WeproofreadyourGoogleDocsorMicrosoftWordfiles.Wehategrammaticalerrorswithpassion.LearnMore YourPainIsOurPleasure 24-HourProofreadingService—WeproofreadyourGoogleDocsorMicrosoftWordfiles.Wehategrammaticalerrorswithpassion.LearnMore Pronunciationof“often” Asakidinthe’50sIpronouncedtheword‘often’withthe‘t’sounduntilIlookeditupandfoundpreferredpronunciation‘of-en’.NowIalwayshearitwiththe‘t’pronounced.DidIimaginethechange? Postedbytrudiwoodward FiledinEtymology/History 18comments ShareonFacebook ShareonTwitter SubmitYourComment Loginwith FacebookGoogleTwitter orfillinthenameandemailfieldsbelow: Uniqueusername/aliasEmail(willnotbepublished) Pleaseenteryourcommenthere Comments Sortby OldestLatestRating 'Of'en'iswhatIgenerallyhearbut,yes,'often'iscreepingin.It'sbasedonthefallaciousideathatwordshavetobepronouncedastheyarespelled. SkeeterLewis Jan-21-2014 1vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse IntheUS,bothMerriam-WebsterandAmericanHeritagedictionariesacceptbothpronunciations,asdobothOxfordandCambridgedictionariesintheUK(butnotMacmillans),althoughnoteverybodyacceptsthat.AccordingtoWikipedia'thepronunciationwithout/t/isstillpreferredby73%ofBritishspeakersand78%ofAmericanspeakers'.ItiscertainlythoughtthattheriseofliteracyinthenineteenthcenturiesledmorepeopletopronouncetheT,butIthoughtthewholeideawasthatyoungpeoplecouldn'tspellnowadays!:)IwouldbeinterestedonwhatbasisSkeeterbaseshisrathersweepingstatement.InBritain,anotherpossibilityistheweakeningoftheinfluenceofRP,withotheraccents(perhapswheretheTispronounced-butIhavenohardfacts)havingmoreinfluenceonachangingStandardEnglish.ForexampleIpronounce'ate'as/et/(shorte),whichIthinkusedtobestandardinBritishRP,butincreasinglyit'spronounced/eɪt/-likehate,evenbyRPspeakers.Thesethingshappen,andhavebeenhappeningforcenturies:backinthefifteenthcenturytheTinoftenwasalwayspronounced.Afterall,backinVictoriantimes,theHinwordslikehotel,historicandhospitalwasnotpronounced.Isourpronunciationofthemalso'afallaciousidea"?'TheBritishLibrary,whichisconductingresearchintothesesortofchangesputitdownlargelytofashion.I'vealsoseensuggestionsthesamepersonmightwelluseboth,oftenunawares.IusuallysayitwithouttheT,butIcan'tguaranteethat'salwaysthecase.OneEFLteacherwrites:'Strangely,Igetaskedaboutthisinclassquitealot,becausesometimesIpronounceoftenbothways.'LinguistBenZimmer,whosuccededWilliamSafireatthe'OnLanguage'columnattheNewYorkTimes,wassureheusedtheT-lessversion,butwasheardpronouncingtheTinaradiointerview.Iimaginequiteafewofusdothesame.There'sagoodarticleonthesubjectbyJanFreeman,oftheBostonGlobe,atherexcellentblog:http://throwgrammarfromthetrain.blogspot.com/2010/07/often-with-t.html WarsawWill Jan-21-2014 3votes  Permalink  ReportAbuse Thepronunciationawf'nisbecomingold-fashionedandof'noroftenisnowusual.AccordingtotheOEDthesoundingofthetwasnotthenrecognizedbythedictionaries.Butthatwasbeforethespeak-as-you-spellmovementgotunderway,andaslongagoas1933theSOEDrecordedthatthesoundingofthetwasthenfrequentinthesouthofEngland.Thatwouldnowbeanunderstatementofitscurrency.Thelong-drawn-outjokeinThePiratesofPenzance-'Whenyousaidorphandidyoumeanapersonwhohaslosthisparentsoroften,frequently'-willsoonbeunintelligibletotheaudience.Fowler'sModernEnglishUsage.Secondedition,revisedbyGowers.Fowlerdislikedthenotionthatwordsmustbepronouncedasspelled. SkeeterLewis Jan-24-2014 1vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @SkeeterLewis-Fowlerdislikedalotofthingswhicharenowcommon,andlikedalotofthingswhichhavefallenbythewayside.He'saverystrangemixtureofprescriptivistandanti-pedant,seeminglyonthebasisofwhatsoundedidiomatictohim.AslinguistDavidCrystalsaysintheintroductiontotherepublishedoriginalfirstedition:"ItisthisunpredictabilityofopinionwhichmakesitdifficulttogeneralizeaboutFowler"WhichiswhybothtraditionalistsandmodernistscanfindsomethingtolikeinFowler,aswellasthingstodislike.IagreethattheoriginalmovetowardspronouncingtheT,pre-Fowler,mayhavebeentodowithspelling,(thismovementseemstohavebeenstrongestinthenineteenthcentury,probablyduetotheriseinliteracy)butIthoughtwewerediscussingitsmorerecentriseinpopularity,whichIthinkmayhavemoretodowithotherfactors,whichI'vealreadymentioned.Inparticular,itdoesn'taccountforthoseofuswhopossiblyuseboth.Andifit'sOKforthepronunciationtochangefrom/ɔ:/(asinawful)to/ɒ/(asinclock),what'stheproblemwithsoundingtheT?TheOEDquoteisfrom1904.Andseeingwe'vequotedfromthefirsttwoeditionsofFowler,here'ssomethingforthethird(1996),editedbyRWBurchfield-"Nowadaysmanystandardspeakersuseboth/ˈɒfən/and/ˈɒftən/,buttheformerpronunciationisthemorecommonofthetwo"OxfordOnlinelistsboththesepronunciationswithoutcomment.OnecommenteratStack.Exchangesaid-"FromaUKperspective,ImustadmitI'veneverencounteredanyonewithanopinionaboutonepronunciationbeingmore"acceptable"thantheother.Ithinkthey'rejustideolectalvariants"Itiscertainlyofinteresttothosewholiketoinvestigatehowlanguagechanges,butthat'sall.There'snothingincorrectaboutpronouncingtheT.Afterall,that'showitwasoriginallypronounced,beforethesilentTmovementgottheirhandsonit. WarsawWill Jan-25-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse Will-Iagree.Thereareallsortsofvariationsandchangesinthedevelopmentoflanguage.Whatwas'fallacious'wastheideathatwordsmustbepronouncedasspelled,withanemphasison'must'.Ofcourse,sometimespronunciationfollowsspellingandsometimesitdoesn't. SkeeterLewis Jan-25-2014 1vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse HiSkeeter-onereasonI'mnotsosureaboutthespellingangleistheriseinthepronunciationofaitchwithaprecedingH.I'mprettysurethisusedtobelimitedtoCockneyandpossiblyafewotherdialects,butwearenowhearingitfromyoungpeopleinBritainwhospeakotherwiseabsolutelyStandardEnglish.Whenyoungpeoplepickupapronunciationfeaturelikethis,Ithinkit'ssimplybecausethat'swhattheyheararoundthem,ratherthanaconsciouseffortbasedonsomefallacyorother.Forexample,I'vebeenpulledupelsewhereinthisforumforusing'differentto'.AndIrealisethatformeit'softenmynaturalfirstchoice.ButIhaveabsolutelynoideawhereIgotitfrom;Icertainlynevermadeaconsciousdecisiontouse'to'ratherthan'from'.IcanonlyassumeIgotitfromschool.Ontheotherhand,Idorememberinmyhippydaysmakingaconsciousefforttoadoptcertainwords(andthengetridofthemacoupleofyearslater-amuchharderthingtodo)-butthatwasbecauseofthefashionwithinmypeergroup.I'mprettysurethatthesetwofactors:subconsciouslypickingupwhattheyheararoundthem,andconsciouslyadoptingthelanguageoftheirpeergroup;arethedominantoneswhenitcomestoyoungpeopleusingnewwordsorformsofpronunciation. WarsawWill Jan-25-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse I'valwayshe(a)rditsaidbothwaysandIhavsaiditbothways.Idon'tthinkthatitisanythingnew.Asforspelling,asmostofyouknow,Ibackspellingreform.Notinaradicalwaybuttomoovtowardsabettershowingofhowthewordissaidandfortheletterstobenotedinamoreconsistent,steddierway.SpellingofEnglishwordshasalwaysbeenandlikelyalwayswillbeinflux.TherearemanyandsundryreasonsthatweshoulddosobuttheonethatslapsmeinthefacesooftenishowmanyfolksIhavmetwhohavstudy'dEnglishforfourorfiveyearsyetwillnotutterawordtomeforfearofsayingthemwrong...Theyarethatunsureofhowtosaythewords.Mygess(MEgessen)isthatforeveryonethatworkshardtolearnournearlyhieroglyphicwayofwritingisthattwoorthree...ormore...throwoftheirhandsinfrustration.Thebestbyspelofthisis-ough.Thoughtheroughcoughandhiccoughploughmethrough,O'erlife'sdarkloughIoughtmywaypursue.—1842,HoraceMann,firstCommissionerofEducationofMassachusetts,publish'dthistoshowtheproblemsinputtingsoundstospellingsinEnglish.Bychangingthewayofsayingthe8"-ough"wordsnotingtheirownanalogies,thisdittycanbesaidin8tothe8thpower(16,777,216)notherways!…OnlyONEofwhich(hwich)isright!Caretotakeaguessastohowtosaycloughandslough?(Therearetwowaystosaysloughhangingonthemeaning!)Luckily,sumofthesewordshavalreddyeitherchanj'dorhavalternativs.Thru,hiccup,plow,andlocharecommon.Ruffisgainingsumtraction.Coffisstillonthefrinjesbutseen. AnWulf Jan-28-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @AnWulf-Ithinkmanypeoplesayitbothwayswithoutrealising.Asforouridiosyncraticspelling,atleastitgivesusgemslikethesethreepoems,thefirstonequitewell-knowntoEFLteachersandstudents.I'veonlyshownfourlinesfromeach.Youcanseetherestatthelinkbelow:ItakeityoualreadyknowOftoughandboughandcoughanddough?Othersmaystumble,butnotyou,Onhiccough,thorough,loughandthrough?We’llbeginwithabox,andthepluralisboxes,Butthepluralofoxshouldbeoxen,notoxes.Thenonefowlisagoose,buttwoarecalledgeese,Yetthepluralofmouseshouldneverbemeese,Shoes,goes,does.Nowfirstsayfinger,Andthensinger,ginger,linger,Real,zeal,mauve,gauze,gougeandgauge,Marriage,foliage,mirage,andage.http://www.wordhord.com/humor/english-pronunciation-poems/ WarsawWill Jan-28-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse SurelythisisacasewheretheRPpronunciationwasinferior(lesslogical)tothatofthecommonindigenousBritons.Arethereothercasesofsilent't'sinBritishEnglish? JohnGibson Jan-31-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @JohnGibson-oneortwo,justlikemostotherconsonantsoften,softenhasten,moistenglisten,listencastle,hustle,bustle,apostle,jostlenestle,wrestle,trestlethistle,whistle,gristlemortgage,Christmashttp://mws.ust.hk/sir/silent_words.phpCommonindigenousBritons?AreyoutalkingabouttheCelts?Aren'tRPspeakers(thefewthatareleft)indigenousthen?Icertainlydon'trememberanymemberofmyfamilyimmigrating. WarsawWill Jan-31-2014 4votes  Permalink  ReportAbuse @WarsawWillIwasmerelymakingthepointthatRPwasalwaysthedialectofaminority-althoughonewouldneverhaveguessedthis,ifone'slisteningwasconfinedtotheBBCuptothe1960s.ThefewRPspeakersleftareprobablyheavilyweightedtowardsdescendantsoftheNormanconquerorsof1066....which,iftrue,makesthemprettyindigenous. JohnGibson Feb-01-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse OfcourseRPhasalwaysbeenaminoritydialect,buttoseeRPpronunciationasbeinginferiortootherformsisnobetterthananRPspeakerthinkingtheirpronunciationissuperior.RPonlyreallyrosetoprominenceinthenineteenthcentury,andthebackboneofRPhasalwaysbeenthePublicSchoolsystemoftheeducatedupper-middleclass,ratherthanthearistocracyinparticular.Inanycase,therehadbeenfivehundredyearsofthepossibilityofintermarriagesincetheAnglo-NormanslosttheirterritoriesinFrance,andgeneticresearchshowstheNormansmadeverylittledifferencetothegeneralgenestock.What'smore,socialmobilitywasmuchhigherinEngland,thansayinFrance,asthethearistocracyinherelearntearlyonthebenefitsofmarryingmoney,andencouragedotherstoaspiretojointhem,whichinpartexplainswhiletheyhavesurvivedmoresuccessfullyinBritainthaninotherEuropeancountries.SoIthinkit'sverydifficulttomakegeneralisationsaboutmodernRPspeakers'backgrounds.NowadaysattheBBCthepuristRPaccentstendtocomefrompeoplelikeMishalHussain,ZeinabBadawiandKasiaMadera,soIdon'tthinkindigenoushasmuchtodowithit. WarsawWill Feb-01-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse LochistheScottishspelling,loughtheIrish.PloughistheBritishspelling,plowtheAmerican-alsoBritishfurtherback,asinatleastsomeBritishprintingsoftheAuthorised(KingJames)versionoftheBible.MypersonalgripewithRPisthatitisnon-rhotic,andtherefore,tome,statessomethingtobecorrectwhichismanifestlyslovenly.DespitebeingborninLondon,IhavespentmostofmylifeinRoss-shire(northofScotland)andinBristol(south-westEngland),soIhaveanappreciationofrhoticspeechevenifIamnotnecessarilyconsistentinusingit. PeterReynolds Feb-24-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @PeterReynolds-Iwouldsuggestthatnoaccentsordialectsareanymoreslovenlythananyother(it'satypicalmistaketocallusersofcertaindialectslazybecausetheyusenon-standardverbforms,forexample),orinferiortoothers.Theyjustfollowdifferentrules.AndinthiscaseRPfollowsthesamerule(non-rhotic)asCockney.Justasspeakersofbothsay/pɔː(r)/(paw)forpoor,whereasweScotspronounceitasit'ssaid-/pʊr/(includingmanyScotsRPspeakers)AreweallslovenlyformissingouttheTinthewordsIlistedabove?OrtheSinwordslikeanswerandisland.AretheEnglishslovenlybecausetheydon'tpronouncetheHinwhen,where,whyetc(unlikesomeScots,includingme)?Areweallslovenlyforpronouncingvegetablewiththreesyllablesratherthanfour.Andthenthere'stheschwa/ə/,themostcommonsoundinEnglish.ThewholerhythmofEnglishdependsonusNOTfullypronouncingeveryletter,aswetrytoteachourEFLstudents-thinkabouthowyoupronounce,forexample,generation/dʒenəˈreɪʃn/-onefullypronouncedE,aschwa,adipthongandasortof'shn'for'tion'.IthinkwhereEnglishisconcernedyou'reonaprettystickywicketifyou'regoingtomakejudgementsbasedonpronouncingeveryletter.:) WarsawWill Feb-25-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @WarsawWillWhatIamreallygettingatisthatifIbuyaphonicsbookforoneofmychildren(suchasLetterland'sBeyondABC)itisgoingtohavepronunciationsofindividualelementsinitthatmakenosenseunlessyouliveincertainpartsofEngland-justbecausethatissupposedtobe"received".I'msureyou'reright-it'sjustfrustrating. PeterReynolds Feb-25-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @PeterReynolds-unlessthey'regoingtopublishdifferentversionstheyhavetoadoptastandardofsomesort,butIimaginenowadaysit'safairlysoftversionofRP.Andnotalldifferencesfollowthesameregionalpatterns.ScotlandandtheWestmaybemorerhotic,butScotlandiswiththeSouthwhenitcomestolongAasinbath,grassetc,andUincup,asopposedtoshortA;andpronounceUmorelikeSouthernersthanin'oopNorth'.Idon'tknowaboutchildren'sphonicbooks,butdon'tchildren'slisteningmaterialsincludedifferentaccents?IteachEFLandourscertainlydo.StandardEnglishbutindifferentaccents.InaanycasekidsgetlotsofexposuretodifferentaccentsonTV.I'msurethechild'shomeenvironmentisgoingtobemuchmoreimportantthananybook.That,afterall,ishowmostofuslearn. WarsawWill Feb-26-2014 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse Ihavenoeducationalcredentialstoofferhere,butI'mgoingtogivemytwocentsanyway.IjustneedtosaytoSkeeterLewisthatyourcomment"It'sbasedonthefallaciousideathatwordshavetobepronouncedastheyarespelled"ishighlyirritating.Iliveinanareawherepeoplemakeupincrediblyannoyingspellingsfornamesbecausetheydon'tbelievethingsneedtobepronouncedthewaytheyarespelled.Peoplecan'tjustgoaroundcreatingnewspellingsforsoundsthatalreadyexistintheEnglishlanguageandwriteitoffas"wordsdon'thavetobepronouncedasthey'respelled."Justsayin'. MrsLovewell Aug-14-2018 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse @MrsLovewellThetendencytopronounceasspelledhastraditionallybeenstrongerinScotlandandAmericathaninEngland.Inaninternationalworldwhereweneedtocommunicatewithpeoplefromoutsideourlocalcommunity,thistendencywillprobablygraduallybecomestrongerinEnglandtoo. PeterReynolds Aug-15-2018 0vote  Permalink  ReportAbuse Doyouhaveaquestion?Submityourquestionhere YesNo ©2021CYCLEInteractive,LLC.AllRightsReserved. About Terms Privacy RSSPosts RSSComments ContactUs  Facebook  Twitter